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English Choose a language for shopping. Amazon Music Stream millions of songs. Russell Street is always clean shaved. JS got a beard, now. He also got a more English haircut…. I think at least half of what is written in this post is not meant seriously. This weird sense of humour. I thought that the Ivy Style team was monitoring the forae closely! There are so many references to American cinema… and as to his look: Single Breasted usually , the natural shoulder line with no or minimal padding, no darts, no pleats on the trousers, a single instead of a double vent… a long lean look, straight and columnar, very soft, unlike the stiff and stuffy, pinched in British hour glass silhouette.
The details are mainly functional: So there is a form follows function aspect about it…. Maybe I was a little unfair towards Christian and vague about it: One thing all of you and maybe most of the people over at TI should think about is one of the basics of post structuralist thinking I don not want to go further into the deatails of post modernism vs modernism etc.
You could also read Henry Louis Gates, Jr. BTW, regarding Russell Street schizophrenia: JS was always conservative and progressive at the same time. Jazz and Blues are older than a years. So is Ivy, so is Modernism. The most interesting aspect is that it is both elitist and egalitarian, all these paradoxes that will confuse a simpleton!
This is a good example of the endless theorizing ad nauseum that I mentioned in the piece. Here in the US there are simply the facts. These are clothes that originally appeared at a certain place and time and were worn by a certain group of people, as an expression of their values. As for taking things on the Internet for face value, if I did that, I might start believing what people say about me. Mr Landauer just demonstrated a wonderful case of hyper-verbal, perhaps those in the field might save it for research and presentation.
Within your hyper verbal at 7: Mod as a youth cult in the UK was all about working class escapism and that comes through in the book which is clearly a subjective mod take on the Ivy style through rose tinted persol sunglasses. I doubt Marsh and Gall would disagree. Aside from all the great images and adverts, this personal take on the Ivy look is what makes for a really good book.
For a well balanced historically detailed but less entertaining account you may have to look elsewhere. Sorry a well written but ultimately pretty pointless review. As stated previously, the press release, dust jacket and text inside make it clear that they are attempting to describe the Ivy League Look and the context in which it was worn.
The shoe chapter is interesting: And this is the first chapter of the book, after each of the introductory essays by Marsh and Gaul. Is this the way it was in America in the heyday? Thanks for making me laugh with your silly sense of humor. You cite Roland Barthes and then throwing out this whammy of a claim: I think that sums it up nicely.
So look at the cool pictures and take the words with a shaker of salt. These were just styles worn by many at the time, and no doubt discarded and seen as square by the 70s. Modernism has nothing to do with it. The parts in the book where they try to meld these disparate mid-century elements, such as Eames furniture or Lucky Strike cigarettes, or Neutra houses, into some forced Ivy persona accessories reeks of UK youth cult nonsense.
It makes about as much sense. The irritating part is the retort when this is pointed out. It just stands to reason that artistic people interested in a certain era would obviously be interested in a variety of other media, objects, etc from the same era. Fuck those god-awful LL Bean rubber boots. What an assault on style. What a visual insult to mankind in general.
They must be stopped. If jealously suspicious of rivals, he will not hesitate to use cunning, lies and trickery to discredit them. Self-centeredness, greed for flattery, boastfulness and bombast, pomposity, snobbish superiority, and overbearing and intolerant disdain of underlings — to whom he will nevertheless delegate the carrying out of minor details in his grandiose schemes… any of these can be characteristic of him. Add to them a passion for luxury, a lust for power, unlimited sexual lust and emotional indulgence, and a character emerges that no one would want to know either in public life or in private.
Simply tell the whole story. Quite clear and hardly delusional Scooby Doo. Perhaps you wish to investigate the mystery of your powers of deduction and conclusions. As in, going to see movies to escape into a daydream. But you obviously have your own world of pure fantasy. You are an escapist yourself,so my comments insult your personal identity, and of course as always, pride.
Notice how your pride twists what I say to fit how you want it to be viewed. That is the way it reads to me. It is clearly not a publishing milestone. Brits generally do not buy books on dressing. America may be different. Lots of gauche but ambitious immigrants. Brits do sit their sniggering. Taking the piss is a national past time. Americans are so earnest in comparison — which can be both laudable and laughable at the same time.
Apparently your Queen heard of him. You know…Esquire magazine in which Hardy Amies had a monthly column? You convinced me of that some time ago. At least we agree on this: The floobian auspices of merterflurbering are certainly aghast here. Wompering the issues through the inversion of synoptrophy only further notrigate the discussion.
Perhaps taking into consideration the non scropian ideals of the senugative and its expos satra that it may reveal or not reveal the actual helocution of the text is the solution. A Latitudinal cross examination of the boolaying suggests it would be the best course of action. Yeah, sure ya have pal.
You take the bait even when there is no bait left there. As for obsessing, you only need to look in the mirror. I nominate Grimwald for best comment ever. You live in a world of pure fantasy. Your fantasies have been debunked. Interesting to see the damage some Brit or other has inflicted on Scooby though. He is positively seething with barely suppressed rage. Evidently centuries combined of J. Press and Brooks Brothers history, the eight Ivy League universities and all other American colleges, and the countless men who dressed in the clothes of the Eastern Establishment from , at which point the style became popular among a larger portion of American men, were all mere puppets in support of this marketing construct.
The only thing disturbing is that other people actually believe such nonsense. Does it have to do with class and money? It has to do with dreams. The book arrived yesterday. There are some reproductions of some old advertisements, so reduced in scale from the originals that they are difficult to read, although I saw several items that I purchased at Brooks Brothers at about the same time as the reproduced advertisements originally appeared and that I still wear. There are also some reproductions of record covers, all people that I have never heard of, but who I think might have performed for beatniks in coffee houses.
There are bongo drums, an essential of the beatnik subculture, on page I am uncertain as to what the book is about, as the type chosen is extremely small and rather difficult for anyone who was actually there in the time period that the book is focused on to read. I guess I, like most others, read your blog to share the enthusiasms of yourselves and others and to learn about a subject to which I am really a neophyte.
What I find particular dispiriting about many of the comments is a basic lack of generosity of spirit. I have no idea where personal criticisms of you should come into this debate, but then, you will understand that getting one over on a perceived authority on the subject only increases the value of their stock, at least in the eyes of themselves and a few smirking cohorts.
However, good for you for sticking to the values of free speech and letting the berks have their say. They are thankfully — as they would themselves wish it — just a tiny, tiny minority. More than a bit of projection going on with Waynker. I came to neither via the web I read about Take Ivy in the last copy of Monsieur I picked up last time I was in Paris and though that it sounded like just the book I wanted to own.
My life changed forever when I read a review of Quadrophenia in Custom Car magazine at some point in at the tender age of 15 and I realised immediately that my time was coming after spending years listening to my parents old record collection and trying to convince everyone at school that there was more to life than Shawaddywaddy or Status Quo. I have always owned at least one pair Bass Weejuns since I bought my first pair in around after seeing someone where them in a Face photo spread along with Chipie Jeans and a Sonetti Check 3 button jacket.
My jackets have not always been 3 button, my shirts not always button down and my ties not always knitted — but my wardrobe has always contained an element of this look. I was the first person all my mates knew who bought a pair of Wayfarers again after seeing them in the Face.
I bought them in D H Evans and they came with a soft brown leatherette case, much cooler than the black ribbed case that replaced it — just before everybody London went out and bought the newer bigger Wayfarers with that crap external logo!!!! For Brits it came from the record covers via the docks and seaman influenced the Mod movement and this is the essence why Brits see Ivy differently than what it was intended.
I remember the first time American businessman visited the office I worked in and they all had these fabulous white button down collar shirts that I quickly realised where from Brooks Brothers. The look is smart and cool and was largely unattainable at that time. Come to think of it nor did the Skins who kicked the living day lights out of me about the same time for wearing khaki shorts with Weejuns and no socks around the same time.
And hence we come full circle, things I wear everyday are coming back into fashion my step daughter still refer to knitted ties as those weird ties with no point that Graham wears. You have got the use of the word sussed totally wrong , it is used in the wrong context throughout the article , it just highlights the huge cultural differences! Why not just wear the clothes the way you like to and stop caring about what anyone else thinks about it?
These discussions on the blogs start out as rather interesting but degenerate very quickly into hair-splitting peel-me-a-grape squabbling over the minutest of details. You guys are totally missing the point! This book is from an English view point! I think you can get a bit anal and hung up on the authenticity of the whole Ivy look and accept the it means different things to different people especially those that live across the pond.
Ok, a very late answer to this blog entry… So, the theory behind most of your articles sepecially this one is: The Ivy League look became simply fashionable in the early 60s in Europe, the war was behind, the youth looked at the US — the movies, the stars, their look.
What you say is similar to following: Most British ivy followers that I know are far more conservative than many American followers of ivy. You assign a fictional narrative and imaginary value structure, and then you argue against your alternate version of reality rather than the truth.
I also think many definitely not all of them British Ivy followers are too dogmatic. In the end it is a feeling you can get. The more I read the website the more I get the feeling. But they simply have another view on it — you claim that yourself, but you call them nuts because of having that different view — they CANNOT have the same relationship to those kind of clothes as Ivy League style never grew on their campuses. Leer, fair enough on these points, but they have nothing to do with your original points or why I suggested you read the entire site.
You probably never wrote this. I might be wrong, though. This niche version of Ivy is really about the costume of hardcore or self-proclaimed original Mod — and in a funny kind of way it is the polar opposite of the traditional origins of country-pursuits Ivy in America, as I understand it. What is interesting to me at least is how that original American Ivy look was heavily inspired by English traditional clothing, which was anethema to the early Mod — a contradictory criss-crossing trans-Atlantic loop of influence.
You are correct, Ivy is just the Americanization of English traditional clothing. One more thing we can be thankful to the British for. Kinda like denying the language we speak is an Americanization of English speech. The Shetland Islands are near Nantucket, right? Christian, I got to say i enjoy this site. The look has been called Ivy League, traditional, preppy and now again Ivy. My rule has always been find your style, because chasing fashion will bankrupt you. When I was growing up, educated Americans tried their best to sound like what they imagined educated Brits sounded like.
For us, New England, meant just that new England. I am an Englishman who has worn the style for over 30 years and who has nothing to do with any subcultural group. Like most English Ivy wearers I wear the style because it is stylish and comfortable. Brooks, I understand Mods working their way through the continental look, to the Austin Powers Edwardian look , to something else? Are they still warring with the Ace cafe crowd? MAC, you are my kind of guy. Or yours I suspect.
Good luck to them. Dear Anonymous, This surprises me very much. Speaking for myself and those I know, that is the appeal of it in dowdy traditional England!
Other UK Ivy internuts seem to be very vocal with their differing opinions. Was it originally a spread collar? How big were the collars that they needed to be BDed, were the polo players inhaling them, were they getting in their eyes? Or is it just a neat freak thing? We know from the Talk Ivy forum that the dozen or so active members there hold several things in the highest esteem:. Coupled with this sort of purist, traditionalist or orthodox stance is a contempt for any kind of updated take on Ivy.
So all those midcentury knock-offs that validate their taste for Ivy are of course derivative and faux, if they were to take as hardline a stance on them as they do towards contemporary manufacturers. So their hardline stance really comes down simply to a point in time, midcentury, rather than a sense of genuine Ivy pedigree. This is why they so often confuse or at least lump together things that are merely contemporary to the heyday but which have no other relation to the Ivy League Look.
Their interest in the Ivy heyday provides inspiration and they find the cultural history interesting. This, for me, this is why the Europeans fascinate: Their yearning for a classicism which online America cares little about because America knows it was all just fashion, forever morphing.
There is a chicken and egg aspect to this line of thinking. Clothes were sold and clothes were bought: Which came first the customer or the product? That Brooks catered to the East Coast Establishment there is no doubt. They also catered to the aspirational. All elites are small by their very nature and so to create a viable business the aspirational must have been Brooks main customers who would have bought the clothes as being the clothes of the elite.
What did the East Coast elite and the aspirational wear before Brooks? That part of this discussion alone interests me. If so, then marketing cannot totally be discounted. A very good read, Christian. The campus as the medium for this process also seems clear.
I see a fascinating mix of marketing and opportunism which must have left Brooks bewildered. I was kind of getting into ivy clothes and style, but after reading this……naaaa. Curently it looks like Moovable Type is the preferred blogging platform outt there right now. I found this book to be far more interesting than so many superficial studies of Ivy style produced by Americans. The British perspective was refreshing. Notify me of follow-up comments by email.
Notify me of new posts by email. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed. Japan The two countries where Ivy has the strongest following are England and Japan.
As Marsh and Gaul write in their foreword: Yo, where my WASPs at? The closest they get to describing the actual arbiters of the Ivy League Look is this odd and clumsy description: They immediately put the focus back on jazz: In the following passages, Marsh and Gaul continue stressing the association of Ivy with artists: Click to share on Facebook Opens in new window.
Frances October 4, at Jancis Robertson October 4, at 2: Wayne Kerr October 4, at 6: Michael Mattis October 4, at 6: Zach October 4, at Justin H October 4, at Adams October 4, at A fascinating dissection Christian. Christian October 4, at Kagi October 4, at Morris October 4, at 2: No, Mass Pike has never connected with Cape Cod. Zach October 4, at 3: Christopher Tawney October 4, at 4: October 4, at 4: ScoobyDubious October 4, at 5: Christian October 4, at 5: NaturalShoulder October 4, at 8: Sam October 4, at 9: Is English your first language?
ScoobyDubious October 4, at 9: Laguna Beach Fogey October 4, at The weird Negrophilia of the English Ivy fanatics is well worth a pyscho- analysis, at least.
Nick October 5, at 1: Jancis Robertson October 5, at 3: John Wilder October 5, at 3: And such a long article too? Methinks the Lady doth protest too much… JW. Christian October 5, at 3: For protesting too much, I think you might want to visit the Talk Ivy forum.
Galveston Knitwear October 5, at 5: I enjoyed both the book and your review immensely. Christian October 5, at 7: TB October 5, at 7: Justin H October 5, at ScoobyDubious October 5, at Vern Trotter October 5, at Christian October 5, at Tony October 5, at Christopher Tawney October 5, at 2: Thomas October 5, at 4: Laguna Beach Fogey October 5, at 5: Adams October 5, at 7: AR October 5, at 7: Laguna Beach Fogey October 5, at 7: Jinx October 5, at 8: Laguna Beach Fogey October 5, at 9: Galveston Knitwear October 6, at 3: Christian October 6, at 7: I have folowed this with great interest.
Wayne Kerr October 6, at The feud is more interesting to me than the review and reaction. Cue much piss taking on both sides. I have just noticed that Jancis above is not the widely published Master of Wine. Christopher Tawney October 6, at Galveston Knitwear is right; it really is just about nice clothes.
Henry October 6, at 3: Christian October 6, at 3: ScoobyDubious October 6, at 3: Not that there is anything wrong with that. Christian October 6, at 4: Wayne Kerr October 6, at 5: Christian October 6, at 5: Now reorder it you fuckers! I do my research. Hobo Ken October 6, at 8: Laguna Beach Fogey October 6, at 9: John Wilder October 6, at Anonymous October 7, at Wayne Kerr October 7, at 1: That is perhaps the kind of book you may want.
Galveston Knitwear October 7, at 2: Christian October 7, at 5: Money grubbing was not. Christian October 7, at 6: Wayne Kerr October 7, at 9: Platt October 7, at ScoobyDubious October 7, at 1: Wayne Kerr Daddy name you that? Yes, I have a copy. Do you want a roll call? October 7, at 3: Christian October 7, at 3: Continuing the debate, however: ScoobyDubious October 7, at 4: But hey, nice photos in the book!
October 7, at 4: Wayne Kerr October 7, at 5: ScoobyDubious October 7, at 8: Christopher Landauer October 8, at 7: Christian October 8, at 8: Already changed cool to hip. Christopher Landauer October 8, at 8: Christian October 8, at 9: I stand by the review.
The reasoning is sound. Christopher Tawney October 8, at Zachary DeLuca October 8, at ScoobyDubious October 8, at 2: Christopher Landauer So these UK experts, these….. Christian October 8, at 2: ScoobyDubious October 8, at 3: Jinx October 8, at 5: Christopher Landauer October 9, at 4: Christopher Landauer October 9, at 5: It was rather conservative!
All the meanings you attach to them are pure construction. All the hipster fantasy is just fun! The connection is much to complicated to explain it in detail! Christian October 9, at 7: Jinx October 9, at 9: Mark October 9, at Christian October 9, at Again, unclear and disorienting point of view, and right off the bat. Who is this fraternity?
Christopher Landauer October 9, at ScoobyDubious October 9, at 2: Jinx I think one thing everyone can agree on is that you are batshit crazy delusional. Christian October 9, at 2: Jinx October 9, at 4: Eastman October 9, at 6: ScoobyDubious October 9, at 6: Jinx Like I said,…. Jinx October 9, at 7: Wayne Kerr October 10, at ScoobyDubious October 10, at 1: Wayne Kerr October 10, at 4: We do that without even trying.
Such sensitive souls, some of you! ScoobyDubious October 10, at 7: Now you go off and obsess about all those gauche American clothes. Grimwald October 10, at 7: ScoobyDubious October 11, at Not true, but hilarious. ScoobyDubious October 11, at 1: Wayne Kerr October 11, at 7: You are very chippy indeed when I inadvertently draw you out. Michael Mattis October 11, at 8: What a poncey little joke you are sweetie.
Oh yeah, I forgot…. Wayne Kerr October 11, at 4: Scooby, I am perfectly happy for you to dig an even bigger hole for yourself. I have no need to trade insults with you.
ScoobyDubious October 11, at 6: Christian October 11, at 7:
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